Big E Loudspeakers

A Forum to discuss Big E Loudspeakers and the MVW technology


    310 Flex---decent pics

    Share
    avatar
    mikearnopol
    Manufacturer
    Manufacturer

    Posts : 177
    Join date : 2013-03-01

    310 Flex---decent pics

    Post by mikearnopol on Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:44 pm

    [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

    310 Flex with stainless steel grills. Off to Chris Buck on Tuesday.
    avatar
    Steve Regier
    Inventor
    Inventor

    Posts : 749
    Join date : 2013-02-07
    Location : Planet Tesla just outside the time stream

    Re: 310 Flex---decent pics

    Post by Steve Regier on Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:29 pm

    I hear that Mike needed a have a lie-down after testing this one at 1,000 watts. affraid


    _________________
    Co-Inventor of the Manipulated Vortex Waveguide
    "So let it be written. So let it be done."
    [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
    avatar
    Steve Cooper

    Posts : 5
    Join date : 2015-07-18

    Re: 310 Flex---decent pics

    Post by Steve Cooper on Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:27 am

    Wow..!
    avatar
    Steve Regier
    Inventor
    Inventor

    Posts : 749
    Join date : 2013-02-07
    Location : Planet Tesla just outside the time stream

    Re: 310 Flex---decent pics

    Post by Steve Regier on Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:49 pm

    MarkA saw this rig in person while visiting MAS. Here is what he says, "It's for guy who plays really loud, according to Mike. I've not come close to tapping out a 210 Flex, so I guess you would have to play really loud to need a 310 Flex... The top two cabs are a 210 Flex mod, straight up, and the bottom is another sub, but crossed over (or low-passed - I'm not clear which) differently than the other two woofers (which are themselves crossed over differently from each other) in order to keep things balanced tonally. Mike did say that the "hot mids" setting of the Flex, which he usually finds hot for his taste, sounds good with the second sub."


    _________________
    Co-Inventor of the Manipulated Vortex Waveguide
    "So let it be written. So let it be done."
    [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
    avatar
    MarkA
    Bronze Member
    Bronze Member

    Posts : 37
    Join date : 2013-02-18

    Re: 310 Flex---decent pics

    Post by MarkA on Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:50 pm

    Yeah, I saw that setup but didn't hear it.  I can only surmise what it would sound like based on talking with Mike and my experience so far with the 210 Flex Mod, which hit like Sugar Ray Robinson, running off a little Kustom KXB 500.  This wasn't at a super-loud gig, but it wasn't a quiet, either, and the combo more than kept up with a full band including keys and horns with the master around 9:30.  

    Bigger gig or outdoor gig, I'm sure I'd have to crank it more, but so far that combo has impressed with its potency -- and adding the sub makes a big difference.  Next time I play it, I'm bringing a big amp.

    I think high SPL tests of the bigger cabs should be conducted on a football field, but that's just me.
    avatar
    MarkA
    Bronze Member
    Bronze Member

    Posts : 37
    Join date : 2013-02-18

    Re: 310 Flex---decent pics

    Post by MarkA on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:51 pm

    Okay, this isn't technically about the 310 Flex, but it's in a similar vein, so I figured I'd post it here rather than clutter things up with another thread.  Perhaps it will inspire you guys or perhaps you'll have insights into the pros and cons of the cab combinations proposed.  (I also posted this in the Big E thread on TB.)

    [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

    Picture's not great, but that's the 46 in between the Flex Top and Flex sub.  Mesa Walkabout on top.

    Partly, I just wanted to see what that would look like, partly to make a bit of space in my place, and partly (of course) I wanted to hear it.  I have not heard it -- yet -- couldn't locate the necessary third speaker cable to make that happen.  Never mind that there's no way I could get such a beastly assemblage going in the confines of my apartment.  At 1800 CCs of effective Vd (I think that's right -- 600 cc per cab, twice my MAS 112's Vd), it's at least twice what I'd need for any gig I can think of (there's nothing yet that I haven't been able to cover with my 112).

    But I did try the Flex Top with the 46!  Surprised that I never thought of that before -- always just figured on combining one or other with the sub.  Now, this is an apartment-level tryout that lasted all of 5 minutes.  Can't say anything about how the pairing would work at volume, how they'd react, as a pair, to EQ, crossovers -- nothing like that.  But, the little bit I tried -- wow.  At gig volume, my 112 is almost perfect.  I love the voicing and it does everything I've liked in my favorite conventional cabs, but with more kick and better clarity and dispersion.  The Flex (top and sub), at gig volume, is the most insane cab I've ever played -- articulation, fullness, and midrange detail are almost cartoonishly present.  It is a bigger sound than the 112, with the color saturation turned up.  Huge, ****-eating grin-inducing.  At apartment-practice volume (where it's total overkill and I never use the sub), though, it sounds, relatively speaking, kind of rough and uneven.  With the 46, though, right away, everything sounded nicely filled-out.  Pretty even -- definitely moreso than the top solo -- nicely detailed, with some of that aggression that I like from the 6" mids in the Flex.  I hazarded the wrath of my neighbors, opened up a window, and turned up until I got the cabs going, just a little bit.  Some nice, percussive impact there!  Should only get better as it's turned up, I think.  Feels more punchy than the 46+sub, somehow, but I'd have to verify this...

    Now part of this might be that the cabs, sitting on top of the sub, were elevated (14") off the floor, which Mike is always telling me to do.  The 46 seems to benefit from this, but I haven't felt it necessary to try with the 112.

    If you look at the driver complement, it's like the 1200 VOG + the Flex mids-section (and extra tweeters).  I tried it with the mids in the 46 "hot" and "normal" and the tweeters in both cabs in various combinations of on/off.  Tried the mids in the Flex in normal and "dark" modes.  All were viable (though I liked the mids in the 46 "hot" and I'd only run the tweeter in one cab).

    Again, it's possible that this would totally NOT work at volume.  I can't vouch for that combo yet and don't know when I'll have a chance to take it out.  But, in my one quick trial, it really does seem to meld my favorite aspects of the 46 and the Flex -- and the Big E stuff seems to follow different rules when combining cabs, so it might work brilliantly.  I suspect that the Flex top with sub would be punchier.  The 112 is "drier" (which I like).

    All three cabs -- don't know how they'd work, either, or what would be the best way to run them (WA will do the 2.7 Ohms, but maybe running the Flex top+sub together off one channel of a poweramp and the 46 full-range off another...), and, again, I'm not playing anything big enough to do such a rig (like the 310 Flex Mike posted earlier) justice, but I thought you all might enjoy seeing it, anyway.
    avatar
    Steve Regier
    Inventor
    Inventor

    Posts : 749
    Join date : 2013-02-07
    Location : Planet Tesla just outside the time stream

    Re: 310 Flex---decent pics

    Post by Steve Regier on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:55 pm

    I love to see the experimenting!

    To get the full effect of that rig it will need to be in a large room or outdoors. You will find it constrained and it will saturate the room before maximum efficiency.

    You may be getting some of the unevenness in the audio presentation from the way the loudspeakers are stacked. When stacking MVW loudspeakers it is best to place the units with the longest waveguide on the bottom and the shortest on the top. Similarly, the loudspeakers with similar waveguide geometry should be stacked together. The length of the waveguide is not obvious in some cases, especially when the cabinet width is the same. Here is a clue. By looking at the 10" RachE waveguide employed in the 110 sub and the bottom of the Flex we see that the cross section of the output flare is larger than that of the 46. This means that the 110 output flare has more area and the internal  waveguide area has less when compared to the 46. Therfore, the internal waveguide of the 46 is longer. Furthermore, the narrower flare of the 46 will project a Near/Far (field) Transition or Event Horizon farther from the loudspeaker. Putting this loudspeaker in between units with a shorter protection could create some interesting effects. Finally, technically the 46 has lower extension than the 110 sub. The110, however, has more punch.

    Put all the above factors into play and we get this:
    Using the waveguide geometry we would place the 46 on the bottom, then the 110 Sub, and then the Flex. The transducers in the 46 will couple to the ground plane causing a rise in bass sensitivity. The two 10" waveguides in the sub and the Flex will now couple adding even more punch to balance the rise in bass sensitivity from the 46. I would imagine at that point the Flex would need to be in Bright mode to keep up. The wild card would be the mid/tweet section of the 46. My educated guess is that the ensuing carrier wave generated by this combo would send the mid/HF info past the player into the audience.

    Well, that's the theory anyway. The proof is in the playing of course.

    You may also want to try the 46 on top of the Flex.


    _________________
    Co-Inventor of the Manipulated Vortex Waveguide
    "So let it be written. So let it be done."
    [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
    avatar
    Steve Regier
    Inventor
    Inventor

    Posts : 749
    Join date : 2013-02-07
    Location : Planet Tesla just outside the time stream

    Re: 310 Flex---decent pics

    Post by Steve Regier on Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:16 pm

    OK, crazy mad scientist BS alert: you all have been warned.
    Vortex
    Your stack,  as pictured, with only the 46 and the Flex powered the 110 Sub IS contributing to the sound. It is coupled to the stack and is acting as a passive radiator. Think Helmholtz resonance. However, because of the MVW waveguide alignment it's contribution is additive rather than causing a cancellation. This can be easily verified by first playing the system at a healthy volume. Then stuff the output flares with pillows and shunt the input jack on the sub. Play again with the same settings as before. The change will be somewhat subtitle but obvious. This effect is very pronounced in our large PA subwoofers enabling us to construct very effective cardioid arrays by merely adding passive MVW subwoofers in strategic locations in the array.

    I now return you to your regularly scheduled forum chatter.
    Dalek


    _________________
    Co-Inventor of the Manipulated Vortex Waveguide
    "So let it be written. So let it be done."
    [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
    avatar
    MarkA
    Bronze Member
    Bronze Member

    Posts : 37
    Join date : 2013-02-18

    Re: 310 Flex---decent pics

    Post by MarkA on Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:02 am

    Thanks, Steve. I read your post twice -- slowly the second time! To be clear, the sub isn't plugged in right now -- the 46 and Flex Top are just sitting on top of it. So, running just the two cabs, the arrangement should be waveguide-appropriate (and elevated), though I get that if I hooked up the sub as well I'd want to put the 46 on the bottom (and find a bigger pasture to graze in).

    Got home and played it (46+top) a bit more just now, back and forth with the 112, goofing around with the EQ a bit along with the switches on the top. At polite home-practice volumes, you can tell the the cabs aren't really "vortexin'". As we edge into impolite-but-plausibly-deniable home-practice volumes (still much quiter than gig volumes), you can hear and feel them start to "wake up". Not sure why, but today, with this combo, that transition seemed particularly obvious to me. Turning up much more would result in knocks on the door and stuff rattling in my little apartment, but that little taste of the "kick" and 3D sound make me want to experience it properly, playing with a group, somewhere I can open it up a bit.

    As for the "tower" (or a 310 Flex), I've only ever played one or two gigs where I could've made proper use of that (outdoor festival), but I'd love to experience it!

    Back to my minutes-old experience with the 46+Flex top - harmonics are insane, doubly so with the mids "bright" in the top. Not as even through the range (yet - haven't done anything with EQ except the most cursory dialing in, but it's super responsive to it) as the 112, but it is bigger, more open, and more full sounding. The 112 actually sounds slightly veiled by comparison, and the 112 (still my benchmark and all around fave) makes pretty much every other cab I come across sound veiled in comparison.

    Enough - spent more time typing about it than playing it. If and when I get a chance to give this combo a proper workout I will post back with details.

    Thanks for indulging me and for the mvw lesson!


    avatar
    MarkA
    Bronze Member
    Bronze Member

    Posts : 37
    Join date : 2013-02-18

    Re: 310 Flex---decent pics

    Post by MarkA on Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:12 am

    Okay, just saw your second post! I will try that, though a very "healthy" volume might require relocation! I assume that the same effect would be present with the 210 Flex (no 46) if I just unplugged the sub at bottom?

    Will look up Helmholtz resonance (I did once, ages ago, but forgot what it means). And "shunt" the jack? Do you mean, un this case, simply to plug it (but not connect it electrically)?
    avatar
    Steve Cooper

    Posts : 5
    Join date : 2015-07-18

    Re: 310 Flex---decent pics

    Post by Steve Cooper on Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:19 am

    Hey, Steve (and other Big-E aficionados)--

    I could use a primer on how the waveguide, flare, and room size interact.  Been happily gigging an 18Sound MAS112 for a while, and recently added a 46/110 sub rig.  So now I've got choices...


    Last edited by Steve Cooper on Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:31 am; edited 2 times in total
    avatar
    Leland Crooks
    Manufacturer
    Manufacturer

    Posts : 542
    Join date : 2013-02-08
    Location : Kansas

    Re: 310 Flex---decent pics

    Post by Leland Crooks on Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:19 am

    Plug in a wire that goes nowhere, correct.
    avatar
    mikearnopol
    Manufacturer
    Manufacturer

    Posts : 177
    Join date : 2013-03-01

    Re: 310 Flex---decent pics

    Post by mikearnopol on Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:02 pm

    In high end audio stores they never have more than one pair of speakers in a room at a time. Because a speaker that isn't hooked up can steal energy from an active speaker. It's subtle but there.

    With the Big E stuff it's even more profound. The passive speaker does behave like a passive radiator. My experience is that it's not a positive thing. It steals energy but does radiate it back to a degree, but I don't feel that it helps as much as it detracts.
    avatar
    Steve Regier
    Inventor
    Inventor

    Posts : 749
    Join date : 2013-02-07
    Location : Planet Tesla just outside the time stream

    Re: 310 Flex---decent pics

    Post by Steve Regier on Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:26 pm

    MarkA wrote:.. And "shunt" the jack?  Do you mean, un this case, simply to plug it (but not connect it electrically)?

    A shunt is a wire connected between the input pins on the input connector. In this case it would be an NL4 connector with pins 1+ and 1- shorted and plugged into the NL4 input jack on the loudspeaker.

    The shunt as not absolutely needed to observe the effect but it is the proper was to shut down Helmholtz resonance.


    _________________
    Co-Inventor of the Manipulated Vortex Waveguide
    "So let it be written. So let it be done."
    [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
    avatar
    Steve Cooper

    Posts : 5
    Join date : 2015-07-18

    Re: 310 Flex---decent pics

    Post by Steve Cooper on Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:57 pm

    Steve Regier wrote:
    MarkA wrote:.. And "shunt" the jack?  Do you mean, un this case, simply to plug it (but not connect it electrically)?

    A shunt is a wire connected between the input pins on the input connector. In this case it would be an NL4 connector with pins 1+ and 1- shorted and plugged into the NL4 input jack on the loudspeaker.

    The shunt as not absolutely needed to observe the effect but it is the proper was to shut down Helmholtz resonance.

    Aha. Lemme see if I got the idea.

    With nothing plugged into the speaker, the cone will move in response to sound waves in the environment--the passive radiator thing. But with the + and - pins shorted, any current generated by the voice coil moving will be opposed by an equal current trying to move it in the opposite direction, and cone movement will hence be inhibited. Like that?

    Sponsored content

    Re: 310 Flex---decent pics

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:53 pm