Big E Loudspeakers

A Forum to discuss Big E Loudspeakers and the MVW technology


    MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Share
    avatar
    Steve Berndt
    Bronze Member
    Bronze Member

    Posts : 28
    Join date : 2014-07-17
    Location : Wisconsin

    MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by Steve Berndt on Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:28 pm

    Don't remember the component designation but this will soon be a reality.

    Hoping Mike chimes in with details but for now if you are curious.... ask Mike.
    avatar
    mikearnopol
    Manufacturer
    Manufacturer

    Posts : 177
    Join date : 2013-03-01

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by mikearnopol on Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:29 pm

    Thanks for the suggestion, Steve. I never really thought of this---I bet there are a bunch of guys with low powered tube amps that would love a speaker with 102--103db efficiency. Duke and I have been been brainstorming and have come up with something that I think would be just the ticket.

    A MAS112 using a Kappalite 3012ho woofer and two mids. (or no mids) I didn't really consider the HO before---it doesn't go quite as low as other woofers and while the excursion is quite respectable---it's not in the crazy 1000 watt category as with the other woofers I'm using. But it does have a 450 watt capacity for those who want double duty with a more powerful ss amp. It's super fast and articulate and very "tight" sounding. I think that the lower powered tube amps will warm it up a lot and slightly "soften" the low end. It won't be a crazy low B string beast, but should still be pretty respectable with a B. It will have a Duke "mid switch" to tame the big 2400 hz bump--or not. Kindof like a "presence" control. Two mids will be fine as far as power handling. No mids will give a reasonable response to 4 khz.

    It will go to gig volume with a 50 watt amp.

    So---it'll be either a MA112 Essential LPT (with no mids) or a MAS112 LPT (low powered tube) with two mids.

    Building it this week.

    $725 for the MA112 Essential LPT
    $875 for the MAS112 LPT
    wheels are extra
    avatar
    Steve Berndt
    Bronze Member
    Bronze Member

    Posts : 28
    Join date : 2014-07-17
    Location : Wisconsin

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by Steve Berndt on Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:51 am

    New tagline for MAS MVW:

    Dreams Do Come True

    A couple of chats, two posts and a designer collaboration later... voila:

    Michael Arnopol Soundworks Manipulated Vortex Waveguide 112 Low Power Tube Bass Speaker Cabinet

    Just wanted to see what that looked like without all the acronyms. Cool

    Time to splurge on some new EL- 34's and 6L6's.
    avatar
    Steve Berndt
    Bronze Member
    Bronze Member

    Posts : 28
    Join date : 2014-07-17
    Location : Wisconsin

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by Steve Berndt on Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:27 pm

    Almost completed.

    So curious and eager to get this cabinet and wring it out with a four banger.

    Should be serious fun at next week's blues jam.
    avatar
    Steve Regier
    Inventor
    Inventor

    Posts : 749
    Join date : 2013-02-07
    Location : Planet Tesla just outside the time stream

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by Steve Regier on Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:36 am

    We are anxious for your review as well. Remember, pictures or it didn't happen.


    _________________
    Co-Inventor of the Manipulated Vortex Waveguide
    "So let it be written. So let it be done."
    [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
    avatar
    mikearnopol
    Manufacturer
    Manufacturer

    Posts : 177
    Join date : 2013-03-01

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by mikearnopol on Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:04 am

    Cab will be done in two days. Plugged it in with just the woofer. 50 watt Fender Bassman. Went to gig volume and sounded GREAT.

    AngeloPB

    Posts : 2
    Join date : 2015-01-28

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by AngeloPB on Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:44 pm

    I am enthusiastically following this thread and the FB posts. I need some guidance as to which 112 would be best for me. I went from a 500 watt SS head to the Mesa Prodigy 4:88. The amp supposedly is rated for 250 watts @ 4 ohms. Subjectively, it seems louder and I have run it at half power.

    I am a single cab guy and my current cab is the 4 ohm EA M-line Whizzy 112. I really love the tone but need to move a little more air. Ideally, I would like to know if the Prodigy has enough ball$ to push the 4 ohm Fatai MAS112 or is the LPT using the Kappalight 3012 a better fit.

    I am more interested in the in-room efficiency of the low end freqs vs 1K test tones. So I wonder how much of a hit in low end efficiency we take using the mids and X-overs option, if any, when we only have a mere "few hundred" precious tube watts to work with. I could probably live with a 4K upper limit given my playing style. But it's nice to have the mids option.
    avatar
    mikearnopol
    Manufacturer
    Manufacturer

    Posts : 177
    Join date : 2013-03-01

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by mikearnopol on Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:05 pm

    I'm very familiar with the Prodigy and have run it with many of my cabs. You can almost bottom out any of the 112's with the Prodigy. I won't get into this argument on Talkbass, but my real world experience with 4xKT88's is that it behaves like a 500 watt digital amp---probably more powerful, I believe.

    No need to go with the high efficiency (Kappalite) cab---although it's a very nice sonic profile. It gets down to which sonic profile you prefer. If you want lean and muscular with a strong and a bit forward midrange---go with the 18Sound. If you want full and fat--but controlled-- with a more natural midrange---go with the Faital. Now the tubes are going to give it warmth in the low end, so the 18Sound gets a bit warmer low end in the process. I go for the Faital, but I'm a fingerstyle funk/R&B sort of guy. If you need more midrange---18Sound---if you want a more neutral midrage--more hifi---Faital.

    What I try to do with my cabs is run the woofers without any low pass filter and bring my mids in at a more gentle slope to match the woofer's natural rolloff. So--no real efficiency loss. The only one I use a low pass on is the Flex's, because the Kappalite 3010LF gets pretty sucky above 400 hz.

    Bottom line---the Prodigy will work---without compromise--with any of the 112's. I know because I've tried the combination.

    Also, if you order one ask for the combo jacks--I charge a few extra bucks because they're more labor. That way you can use a 1/4 to 1/4 cable if need be. I still can't believe that Mesa didn't use Speakons!

    AngeloPB

    Posts : 2
    Join date : 2015-01-28

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by AngeloPB on Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:52 pm

    Thanks. That really helps. It sounds like the Fatai's description would be my preference since I have to pick one. They both sound good though.
    But the Prodigy's preamp makes it pretty easy to dial in midrange grit when necessary. Your descriptions of the 18Sound and Fatai loaded cabs both have the midrange drivers, right?

    I can't believe they didn't go Speakon either, especially since they went though the trouble of the safety feature that protects the power tubes the when there is no speaker connected to rear panel. Every tube amp should have Speakon as a safety measure alone. But I use a cable with 1/4" to Speakon so it is not an issue. At least I have it one side. The wheels would be mandatory, however. I like the 4ohm purple cab on FB. So the Prodigy would get along with it well? Is there much "muffin top" overhang from the chassis on the 112 cabs? It looks close.
    avatar
    mikearnopol
    Manufacturer
    Manufacturer

    Posts : 177
    Join date : 2013-03-01

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by mikearnopol on Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:22 pm

    They both have the same mid drivers.The Prodigy is 16" wide and the 112 is 15 1/2". I can do purple. And wheels. The Prodigy will be fine with 4 ohms. With the tubes, you pretty much get the same power output into 4 or 8.

    crud

    Posts : 11
    Join date : 2014-10-07

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by crud on Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:23 pm

    Can you school me up here?
    Looking at the freq response chart for this driver I have a hard time understanding how this could work as described.
    Looks like it is only efficient at a very narrow peak at 2k, dives off pretty quickly, and doesn't seem to have much below 100 hz.
    Thanks
    avatar
    mikearnopol
    Manufacturer
    Manufacturer

    Posts : 177
    Join date : 2013-03-01

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by mikearnopol on Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:25 pm

    OK--you aren't looking at the graph on USSpeaker, are you? It's the wrong graph.

    In looking at the graph on Eminence's site you can see that the HO is about 98 db efficient from around 135hz to 4khz. I add the efficiency of the rear wave from the vortex and add 3db. This puts me at around 101db.

    I'm also using a passive filter to take out the 7db peak at 2500hz.

    As far as low frequency extension, the fs of the 3012ho is 52hz. I measured it at 47hz with 3 drivers. In the MVW enclosures this means that I can get a -3db point of around 47hz. Most "boutique" reflex cabs have a higher -3db point. I know that Duke's Thunderchild 15 has a -3db point in the 50's as do the Greenboy cabs.


    crud

    Posts : 11
    Join date : 2014-10-07

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by crud on Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:18 pm

    thanks Mike,
    I was using the USSpeaker chart. Ooops.
    avatar
    Steve Berndt
    Bronze Member
    Bronze Member

    Posts : 28
    Join date : 2014-07-17
    Location : Wisconsin

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by Steve Berndt on Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:21 pm

    Thanks so much for the call this morning Mike.

    One MAS 112 LPT with Red Cotton mouth is leaving Wilmette and heading to Central Wisconsin.

    This is going to be fun. Mike's exuberant descriptions have got me all wound up and sporting Missouri Attitude.
    avatar
    Steve Regier
    Inventor
    Inventor

    Posts : 749
    Join date : 2013-02-07
    Location : Planet Tesla just outside the time stream

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by Steve Regier on Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:00 pm

    Sporting a what?.... albino


    _________________
    Co-Inventor of the Manipulated Vortex Waveguide
    "So let it be written. So let it be done."
    [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
    avatar
    Steve Berndt
    Bronze Member
    Bronze Member

    Posts : 28
    Join date : 2014-07-17
    Location : Wisconsin

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by Steve Berndt on Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:53 am

    Lol

    The state motto not the battleship.
    avatar
    Steve Berndt
    Bronze Member
    Bronze Member

    Posts : 28
    Join date : 2014-07-17
    Location : Wisconsin

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by Steve Berndt on Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:19 pm

    A show me attitude

    Btw game over

    The LPT is Stoopid Good
    avatar
    mikearnopol
    Manufacturer
    Manufacturer

    Posts : 177
    Join date : 2013-03-01

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by mikearnopol on Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:41 pm

    I'm so glad! Again, thanks for the suggestion.I'm totally enamored with this cab./ Of all of the 112's--if I didn't have to go CRAZY loud--this one is my preference.It's just soooo transparent from 120hz to 3khz. How'd it do with the Matchless?
    avatar
    Steve Berndt
    Bronze Member
    Bronze Member

    Posts : 28
    Join date : 2014-07-17
    Location : Wisconsin

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by Steve Berndt on Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:38 am

    Hey Mike

    The LPT and Thunderman pairing is absolutely scrumptious.
    I hope to get copies of the following signal path used at a session.
    Four string session:
    Le Fay Herr Schwarz and Gretsch Thunderjet
    Matchless Thunderman
    MAS112LPT
    Sennheiser 421

    Hmmm Thunderman Thunderjet. ...
    Methinks LPT should mean Low Power Thundertube.

    crud

    Posts : 11
    Join date : 2014-10-07

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by crud on Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:44 pm

    Hey mike,
    So the LPT is the closest fit yet to my needs.

    Because the vortex reminds me some of horn loading, is there any boundary effect with wall or corner placement, , or is the cabinet itself the boundry effect.
    avatar
    Steve Regier
    Inventor
    Inventor

    Posts : 749
    Join date : 2013-02-07
    Location : Planet Tesla just outside the time stream

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by Steve Regier on Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:54 pm

    crud wrote:Hey mike,
    So the LPT is the closest fit yet to my needs.

    Because the vortex reminds me some of horn loading, is there any boundary effect with wall or corner placement,  , or is the cabinet itself the boundry effect.
    Every dual Output Flare (port) MVW cabinet generates it's own boundary effect. However, conventional boundary reinforcement can be utilized with an MVW just not to the save degree as a conventional loudspeaker. A good example of this is when Mike recommends placing the loudspeaker on a chair or stand in very boomy environments. This decouples the loudspeaker from the ground plane reducing the bloom. The MVW, however, remains unaffected and continues to produce solid bass response as if it was still in half space.


    _________________
    Co-Inventor of the Manipulated Vortex Waveguide
    "So let it be written. So let it be done."
    [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

    crud

    Posts : 11
    Join date : 2014-10-07

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by crud on Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:34 pm

    Thanks Steve.
    avatar
    mikearnopol
    Manufacturer
    Manufacturer

    Posts : 177
    Join date : 2013-03-01

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by mikearnopol on Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:18 pm

    Yeah---
    one thing I love about these cabs is that they really like being elevated. With most cabs this really emasculates the low end With the Big E cabs--they maintain the lows when elevated. As a matter of fact with most f the Big E cabs I prefer them elevated.
    Recently I compared the MAS66 to a well known cabinet with a 15" woofer and a 6" midrange. It's really known for its strong low end. It was sitting on the floor and the 66 was elevated about a foot. The 15" cab was boomy and diffuse in the low end. At first the 66 seemed not as big but we realized that we were getting a big 2cnd harmonic "woof" with the 15 After playing for a while we realized that the 66 extended much lower and retained control all of the way down. The 15 sounded like a subwoofer in a car and the 66 sounded like a fine home hifi speaker as far as extension, power and definition
    To me--the type of bass with the 15 makes a bunch of woofy moosh in live situations.

    And keep in mind---the 66 was elevated.
    avatar
    MarkA
    Bronze Member
    Bronze Member

    Posts : 37
    Join date : 2013-02-18

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by MarkA on Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:44 pm

    So radbass (on TB) posted about trying the latest version of the 112 -- along the lines of the LPT (an update to the LPT?) with a speaker that was custom made for Mike. He said (and I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him here -- I'll give him a heads-up that I'm doing so):

    I stopped by Mike's on Friday to pick up his bass for some repairs and got to hear an MAS 112 with a new speaker custom made for Mike. This is as exciting as hearing the Big E speakers for the first time. The upper mids could possibly be the clearest of all the cabs. It has a similar sound to the 4x5, which is one of my favorite sounds ever, but huge and loud. This new cab seems to be as efficient as the LPT and goes deeper than than the 18sound or the Faital. It probably won't take as much power as those two, but will probably get as loud with half the power. We compared it to a 4x6 with the sub and the 4x6 was slightly puncher in the low mids, but I preferred the upper mids of the 112. We boosted the low mids on Mike's Demeter and it was really close. Post coming up on new MAS 109.

    Last time I was at Mike's place he mentioned this being in the works and showed me a graph of the frequency response (and maybe some other parameters) of the new speaker. He seemed pretty excited about it.

    Thought about starting a new thread for this, but there are already several 112 threads and this seems related to/a continuation of the LPT, so I'm posting here to ask for the lowdown on this cab. If any mods feel this would be more appropriate in its own thread, please feel free to move this!
    avatar
    ric426

    Posts : 15
    Join date : 2013-09-11
    Location : Highland, MI

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by ric426 on Sun Aug 09, 2015 6:23 pm

    I'll be looking for more info on a "new MAS 109". Wonder how that will differ from the MA109.

    Sponsored content

    Re: MAS Essential 112 Tube

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:42 am